Abortion

Again, please show me a reputable scientist that has said a fetus is not a human being. Spare me your opinion, we all have established you are completely and utterly wrong. We have discounted each and every one of your posts. But yet, you still feel this way. Either you are ignorant and truely do not know (but still have the power to learn), you are playing with our minds, or, you are brainwashed.

Once you can provide me with what I, and many others have asked for, than you may actually get taken seriously here. I respect your view that the woman should be able to choose, but, I can not, due to my education I have received and given to myself through study, accept that a fetus, composed of human DNA, made by a human male and a human female, can not be a human.

 

any part of body is made of human dna. stop saying things that are irrelevant. i am not saying its a rabbit.
fetus heart does not work like human heart. i posted the site
fetus lungs does not work. does not inhale and exhale. posted the info
fetus does not eat so his stomach does not work.unlike human body
does fetus see inside the mother's body. does his eyes work like human eye
does he hear the noises inside the body. i do not think so. regardless since human ears work based on air movement then it either does not work or works differently
does his digestive system work the same way. no it does not since it does not eat.
does his sense of smell works the same. no it does not. smell is also a reaction to the air born particles. no air born particles inside the mothers body.
i can go on and on.
so although it has these body parts they act differently than human body parts.
now all of these changes the minute that it breaths. it just switches on. you see there is a very clear start to human life.
you do not see it because you look for it where it does not exist. step back. look at when it is born. look at when it takes his/her first breath of air. you will see when it becomes human, it is very clear.
do not fool yourself. there are a lot of scientists and doctors that say fetus is a mothers body. just search it.
maybe i am the first person that you noticed explain it so clearly. maybe you understand it for the first time.

 

Again, please link to a scientist/doctor that is reputable. Until you can do such, no one is going to take you seriously.

 

You are asking someone that does not know how to hold the shift key down when starting a new sentence.

 

some reading about fetus and mother.
http://eileen.undonet.com/Main/infrmdC/Paradigms.html

 

LOL...

I have him on ignore but I can guarantee you anything he posts will be decidedly non-scientific and will not be reputable.

 

for the record i am using the word human very carefully.it is easier if i used person.but human has a meaning. human being has a certain characteristics that fetus does not have. yet. before birth. it is alive like any cell in the mother's body. but it is not human, like it becomes human after birth. it is human tissue. but not a human being. it depends on the organs of mother to survive like the rest of her body. and as i mentioned before it lacks human characteristic. as a matter of fact state of Connecticut recognizes fetus as body part .
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/irvi/irvi_03conncourtonfetus.html
further more a Colo. judge said Fetus is not a 'person'

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/mar/21/fetus-not-person-mesa-county-judge-rules/

Highest Court of South Korea: Fetus is "Not A human Person" Until Labor

Hawaii high court says fetus not a person, reverses mother’s manslaughter charge

before infestation in kansas
http://www.kansasmeadowlark.com/Issues/ProAbort/Sebelius/MomChildMurderedText.htm
lol i still want to get the religious aspect of it also. but nobody wants to deal with that.

 

You're right browntwn. These "sources" are decidedly not scientific in any way shape or form, but, the opinion of a couple of judges.

To counter what you said, the state of Texas recognizes the fetus as a person. It also recognizes that killing a fetus is still murder (i.e. killing a mother, the baby dies, person tried for murder, andmurder of an unborn baby).

And, you are supposed to be showing me something that is scientific. Your quote says under Kansas' state homicide laws, which, are in no way shape fr form scientific.

Your grasping here. Please, show me some evidence. You have failed miserably at it. You're starting to meet the definition of mentally handicapped. You know, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a differant result.

 

Same here, on both points!!!

 

And just like I thought, Pizzaman has no ability to back up his claims. So he has bowed out. Thank you for proving our poitn, although it took 14 pages of nonsense.

 

I was a bit reluctant to bump this but this news is very much related to the topic and something to consider I feel.

Fetuses found to have memories 2 months before they're born.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/16/fetuses-found-to-have-memories/

 

You can't legally abort at 7 months. So while it's interesting news it's not pertinent. Not unless it was to point out that at no point during the time it is able to be aborted the fetus can't even remember anything, which would be another human characteristic it's lacking.

 

My number one point was it was interesting news on topic possibly not rating it's own thread.

My secondary point was to share another proven ability the baby has independent of the mother in the womb showing it's an individual rather than a body part of the mother such as a nose until it breathes air as pizzaman has said.

I wasn't digging or even thinking of this thread, just came across the current news article.

 

I am also against abortion although I had it in mind when I got pregnant at an early age.. Thank God my plan did not push through.. I am so happy with my son even without the father.. As for the abortion thing, I say I am very much against it because why would a mother pass on the suffering to her conceived baby.. An innocent baby should not suffer the fault of the parents.. Anyone who is planning for abortion should think twice cause that baby is God's blessing.. A baby is always a blessing.. Hope everyone bears that in mind..

 

An embryo is not a "baby", it's a collection of nondescript cells.

 

My wife is pregnant... we're having a baby, not an embryo. I call it a baby, she calls it a baby, everyone that refers to it being inside her when talking with us calls it a baby therefor I will call it a baby here whether a dictionary and/or you agrees or not. A dictionary and scientific term is made up by humans, no different than the humans who overwhelmingly call it a baby. I'm sure we're all intelligent to know exactly what I'm referring to.

In fact, I can't think of a single time someone talked about it while in the womb with any of my current 3 kids as an "embryo" or anything other than the term "baby".

My point in this post? I call it what everyone knows it as being and also calls it, a baby, is it different in your country? Do people walk up to pregnant women and say "WOW, you're really showing, I bet that's one healthy embryo!!" ?? Is "stOx" your real life legal name decided by another human (likely your parents)? If not we should stop calling you by "stOx" right? If it makes you feel better let's give embryos a nickname, how about... "BABY"? Very fitting.

me=pro choice, my thoughts? Abortion is killing a baby human and an awful thought IMO.

 

i got a lot of red in this thread o i make one final post

pay attention to the image
fetus is inside of mothers body.
choices are
a- part of body which i support
b-separate entity
which would makes it a parasite like being
this would explain the sick feeling that mother gets while pregnant and eventual discard of fetus which we call birth.
why do society has the right to ask the mother not to take care of her body.

now the nature of fetus aside
can you force a father to donate blood to his one month old if it needed it and was about to die.

so why do we want to force mother to donate blood and use of her body?

i thought that we talked about me taking a new approach to the abortion issue trying to solve a disagreement that no one has been able to solve. that i did already. i took acceptable science and approached the issue in a new and fresh direction. i came to a conclusion that can resolve the question using sound and scientific evidence. i used sound logic and proved every evidence to the contrary wrong. now you object why my idea and approach is original.

 

As happy as i am for you and your wife she doesn't get to be the arbiter of what things are.

no people generally don't. But then, people generally don't know what they are talking about. when a scientist is studying embryology (s)he will at no point refer to it as a "baby", "wikkle babywaby" or any other endearing term that pregnant mothers tend to use when talking about their unborn, developing fetus.

the fact is there are stages to a human embryos development. The first stage is the zygote which after 3 days is still just a clump of 16 cells.
After 5 days we get what is known as a blastocyst, It's when the cells have configured themselves into 2 groups, one group which will become the embryo and the other which will become the placenta.
After 10 days, if it's one of the few lucky ones, it will attach it's self to the wall of the womb, most don't get this far and are flushed out on the next menstruation.
After 12 days it will start producing hormones, this is widely considered the start of the "pregnancy".
two weeks after fertilisation the "streak" will appear, this is the beginning of what will later form the nervous system. At this point spontaneous division of the blastocysts, the event which causes identical twins, isn't possible.
At 3 weeks the embryo is about an inch long long, resembles a worm and is almost indistinguishable from other other species at the same stage of development.
at 7 weeks pain censors begin to form, but because higher brain functions aren't present the fetus has no capacity to "feel" pain, it lacks all mental capacity.
At 2 months features begin to appear, though the features that do appear are generic "mammalian" features, similar to that of a cat or a pig.
At 10 weeks it reaches the classification of "fetus", at this point gender may be detectable and it starts to resemble what we would consider a human.
After that it's pretty much just developing brain functions and getting bigger.

So you and your wife can use whatever word you like to describe any point of that development, but if we are talking about abortion we have to approach it from a scientific perspective and not base our argument on what people generally call the embryo/fetus while it's in the womb.

From a scientific perspective i think we should limit abortions to the embryonic stage (up to 10 weeks) until we have a better understanding of at which point higher brain functions developed. because, up until a particular point, it is just a nondescript collection of cells and i don't see any moral dilemma in removing a nondescript collection of cells. Should we then find out that higher brain functions don't develop until 20 weeks then i see no moral dilemma in limiting abortions to 20 weeks.

This isn't just a yes or no issue, as most people seem to think it is.

 

Why do we "have to approach it from a scientific perspective"? Because your argument fails is we don't use your favorite words?

Yes the BABY has stages of development. We've talked about this before. You think you are right because you choose not to call it a baby while it is in the womb. We think we are right because we think it's a baby. It's not anymore complicated than that.

I know we've covered this... If a mother aborts her baby in the first two trimesters, it is legal because the courts or the law does not recognize the fetus as a "baby"... but if someone causes injury to the mother which results in the death of the fetus, then the courts or the law recognizes that fetus as a baby and charges are filed accordingly.

The fetus or baby argument is personal. I call it a baby and vote accordingly. I doubt that I will ever change your mind. I can live with that.

 

Hahaha!!!

Obviously you've never had a 16 year old!!!