Does God exist?

Scylla, My posts are totally on the subject. I just choose to answer Stox on this because his posts at least make some sense. No catfight here, because my posts show the indirect evidence that god does exist. The bread crumbs are all there and this is why theists outnumber atheists globally and will continue to do so as I have pointed out in my past links because these days people not only believe blindly but need to have common sense in the equation, and all common sense so far backs the belief that there is a chance that god exists. This is called planting the seed.

Now we have a world reknown physicist also saying that the world is too orderly, to beautiful and that is why they believe that god created it because it could have been one clump of chaotic mass.
God is much much more than some old guy in the sky. Most unbiased and educated atheists know this, plus they know that most christians see god as much more than that. Its just some cannot see past their biases.

Im not asking anyone to believe, Im just showing them that there is enough indirect proof that god may exist.

 

Do you even understand that the God he is talking about, is something totally different than the God of bible or other religions? If you even listened to the link that you posted, he mentions that the God he is talking about is something totally different than the God who tells his followers to Je*k off as the "religious healthy" way of life but I suppose you were too busy to find a physicist that mentions the word.
Any way, here is a different link by him that shows bible is just a bunch of crap, since you are his admirer, do you agree with him that bible is BS?

Bible is BS by Michio Kaku .

 

Gworld This is why im trying to keep my answers to you as simple as I can. Did you not understand what I was asking Stox? Can you even comprehend what i was asking him. We were talking about the possibility of god existing and why this is so. The order of the universe shows this. We were not even questioning what kind of god it was but were talking about the indirect evidence that god does exist. When were we talking about the bible. Do you usually have a problem staying with the question, or do you always jump around?

At least Stox can finally stay with the same question. The order and beauty os this universe. This is what I have been saying all along. If you start to look at this then you will have to at least acknowledge that there is some kind of INTELLIGENT POWER OR FORCE AT WORK HERE.
Gworld at least you acknoledged that part of the video for me. Your getting better, and it also shows that you also acknoeldged the possibility that god does exist.
Thanks again and god bless you

 

What is your definition of God? Do you acknowledge that the God of Christianity and bible doesn't exist? Do you acknowledge the bible is BS? If you accept these points, then we can start talking about the other part.

 

"god" from Christianity is the only god worshipped there as they only believe in one god. Now if we look back at history then lets start discussing the roman gods, the Egyptian gods etc. I know that the god of christianity is not real just as I know all of the other gods aren't real either.

 

if we research on religious based what the religion who do not believe in God
Hinduism that worship Figurine many people do not like them due to they think these are just stones but no actually if you read there holy books you ll come to know they think that there is God in this Idol or God gave special power to this Idol
as you are a Christian your believe is "Esa ibne Maryam (PBUH) was son of God"
we Muslim believe in God and we think God chose some people to lead us and teach us for a good life as our prophet Muhammad (PBUH) and yours Esa Ibne Maryam (PBUH) and we read in our bookes from history of Muhammad (PBUH) that Esa Ibne Maryam (PBUH) ll come again now they are near God

and at least if there is no God then?
who we are
why we are
where we are going

 

I believe there is no design, nor intelligence in our "creation" as we were not "created" as you would suddenly create a painting or some work designed by machines.

Rather, knowing geologic history, and life history, I know life began on this wonderful blue ball of water and rock some 4.1 billion years before today, and it all started with self replication. As each RNA strand replicates there is the chance for mutation. It took from 4.1 to 3.6 billion years ago to go from simple self replicating strands of RNA to simple bacteria (Archaea) which are still around to this very day in various forms.

Do you realize how much time that is? That is 500,000,000 years. It took that long to make the jump from tiny self replicatory strands of amino acids to mutate and change. It was not a quick process, and it went through many thousands upon thousands upon possibly thousands of generations to reach the simple layout of the ancient bacterium. It's not even to the level of actual bacteria at that point, Archaea is its own Domain, of the Three Domains of Life. (Archaea - archaic bacteria-like organisms which are still around, Bacteria - bacteria..., Eukarya - cells with a nucleus, makes up four kingdoms of Eukarya life [Protista, Fungi, Plantae, and Animalia]).

If there was a plan, this would have been done sooner - however it took many failures, many different tries, before the first major form of life was able to take hold. However, once this stage was reached, the mutations began to speed up slightly. 3.2 billion years ago the first stromatolites are found in the fossil record, these are still in existence today as well. They are simple colonies that build rock-like domes over the course of many years. So, it took from 3.6 to 3.2 to reach this level - another 400,000,000 years!

The atmosphere did not even have Oxygen in any significance until bacteria produced it as a waste product, and it bound to iron and released iron oxides from the ocean! It would not be until 2.5 billion years that we reached any significant amount of oxygen in the atmosphere, which means it took 700,000,000 years to get that far! Do you not see the amount of time it takes for simple organisms to change and become more than they are? We're still talking about Archaea and Bacteria here, we haven't even gotten to Eukaryotes! They would not evolve enough symbiotic relationships to facilitate complex cellular life until around 1.8 billion years ago.

That means from when life began, 4.1 billion years ago, it took 2,300,000,000 years to reach a cell with a nucleus! That long! There were no shortcuts, and there are likely other variants before this one even succeeded! That means between 2.5 billion, when the oxygen was plentiful enough, to 1.8 billion, there were 700,000,000 years of failures, before it was successful and gave rise to all forms of Eukaryotic life today (plants, fungi, single celled eukaryotes, and animals). Of course, each one of these is a different branch of that lineage, as plant cells have walls, while animal cells do not - and many other differences. This means that from 1.8 billion years to a billion years ago to 1 billion years ago (800,000,000 years again!) these single celled eukaryotes began to get multicultural, however the first presence in the fossil record is from just a billion to 850 million years ago.

Multicellular life would take until 630 years ago to really show a stronger presence as selection let the best survive while the weakest faded into obscurity. Entire orders and classes of animals, plants, and fungi, and even things we don't have names for lived and or died off, as the entire process of evolution is basically an arms race. They build a better gun, we build a better armor against that gun. They don't adapt? They lose and die. They adapt? We must do better or die. Simple concept.

Look at how much time it took to get just this far! The changes were not radical from one generation to another, it was gradual small changes in every single generation that lead to this point of having simple animals - jellyfish-like clumps of cells strung together! Development into complex creatures like fish and eventually tetrapods (you, lizards, me, monkeys, birds, frogs, anything with four limbs and five digits) takes millions upon millions of more years.

In addition to that, it wasn't just the basic fish design that led to one group - the tetrapods - they actually led to others that died out. Those with more than five or less than five digits all died out because the ancient ancestor of frogs, reptiles, and mammals were able to out-compete and out-do anything else. Tetrapods would not evolve on this planet until 365 million years ago.

From 4.1 billion to 365 million years ago, some 3,735,000,000 years (if humans live an average of 76 years, this is 49,800,000 human lifetimes) live changed incrementally, with each generation being slightly different in the tiniest way from the last. Evolution did not take a short amount of time - it took too damn long if you look at how slowly it worked. Additionally the lifespans of the earliest life were probably no more than a few days, which means that 49,800,000 generations is a gross understatement of how many generations from the first RNA strand to us there were. It is likely that, because of how much shorter the lifespans were to begin with, there may have been billions. Billions. Try to comprehend that number - billions of generations.

After this basal species, this four limb species with 5 digits on each limb, took hold and began to fill in niches, it too gradually changed over millions of years. Amphibians were the first to grace the land, being the ancestor to the Amniotes. The Amphibians were very different 360 million years ago, and the latter two groups would take 20 million years to develop through incremental changes - being more land adapted and able to lay eggs that were protected enough to hatch on land. Additional improvements in the circulatory system and other changes in the skulls through favoring of traits gradually and slowly emerged over 20,000,000 years.

Amniotes then differentiated themselves into two groups, around a million years apart. One group went one way, the other went a different path, and a few that took other directions all died. Its no clear cut left and right - it's a bunch of different paths with death at the end.

You now have the Synapsids (lizard-like Mammal ancestors) and the Sauropsids (reptiles - and yes, that means birds too).

Do you not see how much time and how much incremental change is involved? How many failures there were are innumerable, how many poorly adapted creatures went extinct, and how many lines just went off the radar after any kind of disruptive change they could not adapt to? The Synapsids and the Sauropsids are all adaptable to a greater degree thanks to the slow incremental changes that may not have gotten rid of certain traits that were useless, or buffed up ones they already had. Endothermic reptiles and synapsids meant they did not need to rely on a strict temperature, while those that could handle a greater variety of food were less likely to starve and die.

And yet, here we are, still debating whether or not some supreme entity planned every detail of how we came about. This is insane. All of you are insane. I could keep going, all the way down to today's creatures and how we are all really just advanced fish, and through 360 million years of incremental changes we became adapted to everything we are now, but it would be ignored and a waste of time, because its just words to you, and has no meaning.

None of it matters when you want comfort in the idea of a creator, an after life where you don't die, and a snuggle blanket of Christ with a side of Mohammad - at least the Muslims kept mathematics alive during the dark ages.

The frustration comes from, after years of research, years of forming one's own opinion, years of thinking, and by thinking I mean thinking about the core concepts of being alive, people will blindly disregard every word. I have already been through this shit so many times with theological ideas, of many different faiths, it is enough to make me have the urge to bust my eardrums and rip out my eyes - and yet those of faith usually just assume they are right no matter what the "crazy monkey man" says.

How do you think I became a libertarian? Did it happen because I suddenly started following Ron Paul? No. Did it happen because I kept reading and learning until I finally reached the point of understanding that it went "ding"? Yes. No one will ever have a "ding" moment unless they seriously consider what I have written, and so much more that is out there. I toyed with other religions after I determined that Christianity was bullshit, and I found them all lacking in explanations. To have faith in something like that, without having any kind of real empirical data to support it is something I can not do. I used to believe in the Big Crunch, but upon further inspection, that too turns out not to be the case. So you know what? I dropped it.

I used to think the Democrats were right back many years ago. You know what? Evidence showed that well, gee, I was wrong about that, since going to socialism does not work. Dropped that. Then I was a republican and I (gasp) voted for Bush for re-election. Found out really quick that was a bad idea. Dropped that after I began to read more, and look at more. Today, being a libertarian is more in line with what the original way the country was, and it used to work just fine. Hence - it is better than fascism and socialism.

Same process as above leads me to the conclusion that there is no God. It also leads me to see the Bible for what it is, the Old Testament is a collection of stories from Babylon that were modified to fit the times, as is proven by ancient writing which is very similar and were written for entertainment, not religion. Modifications were the changing of the gods into one god to support a view, and so on. It would be as if we took Shakespear's plays or the Greek tragedies, and turned them into a holy book for a single God. It would, surprisingly, work in that age before we had the minds and technologies to show that well, clouds make lightning, and condensation makes rain, and rodents don't pop out of thin air.

With science we have shown that a lightning strike onto a grouping of gasses and chemicals that were common 4.2 billion years ago could create amino-acid like strains. The very beginning of life may be no more complex than lightning strikes on ancient pools of dirty water. The answer to the Big Bang is theoretically possible to find, however it would require vast amounts of scientific breakthroughs in the realm of faster-than-light travel, and being able to plop a ship billions of light years out, to where the light from the bang has yet to reach - dead space beyond the edge of the universe itself. From there observation could be recorded. However, unless this faster-than-light travel could bring them back without billions of years having passed, they would be the only ones who know.

But to shut down and just say "God did it" is a way of just quieting the mind's own ruminating and pondering about how it actually happened. I refuse to stifle that and I refuse to attribute the huge clusterfuck of a universe we live in to some deity. We're likely to collide with another galaxy in a few billion years, so yes, it is a clusterfuck of imperfection in itself. Andromeda and the Milky Way are about to have a clusterfuck collision - and there is no better way to describe it - in 3 billion years. That's before the sun is exhausted, and thus a chance that humans may still be living on our little world. However based on calculation, which is a major part of our sciences as that involves math, we have a good chance of just being flung away. That pretty much means us, and a few close stars, get to float off into wherever and would be unaffected by the change with the exception of the star patterns. However there is a chance that we could be flung inward, to a busier area. It's a 50/50. But hey, that is 3 billion years from now, life on earth is likely to be very different.

There is no reasonable proof to justify or attribute the creation of the entire universe, the Milky Way galaxy, the Solar system, Earth, the life on Earth (and possibly Mars, Tritan, and Titan, or Europa), Mammals, or humans to a supreme being. There just is not any. The debate has been pushed far away from creationism, or intelligent design to "Who made the universe?". There is no who, but rather, a what. That what is not yet known, but every day we come a bit closer. The LHC should start getting us incrementally closer to the answers we seek, day by day, year by year. Unless we wipe ourselves out, we may know the answers or the probable answers sooner than my suggested end of life age based on averages.

 

interesting theory there, still doesnt explain how the universe came into existance though.

 

You clearly are, above all else, a sight to be beheld. In the face of a post such as mine, such a laconic response is so very biting and clear, surly I must be wrong.


Not.

 

The thing is saying "we don't fully understand it yet" is a far more informative point than "a magic man done it" ever could be.

See, the thing about invoking the god of the gaps fallacy is you seem to be under the impression that "magic man done it" is automatically the answer in absense of a full scientific explanation, which is a false dicotomy fallacy, like how creationists try to prove creation by attacking evolution. It's amazing how in so few words you can commit so many logical fallacies.

 

You know, had I written that as content it would be worth more than 90 dollars. I expect some of you to damn well ready it. Had I known it would be that long I would have never written in in the first place and wasted the time and effort. The lack of response is deafening and condemning.

 

It was a good post but the lack of response is because the religious people have nothing to say. Look at ping, he is already accepted (even if he doesn't admit it) that the God of Christianity doesn't exist and bible is more or less BS but desperately tries to hang on to some other fantasy god, the "intelligent" designer.

 

I think you should look up the difference between 'creationism' (whats being discussed here) and 'evolution' which is what you've posted about. Two different concepts entirely!

 

No shit. I don't even read posts that big without getting payed.

 

I was basically showing how creationism, or its flavors, like intelligent design, do not work. But thanks for ignoring the post and just taking a tiny part out. Here's your sign.

 

I read the whole of it and its great. Unfortunately, as you say they don't care because their mind-dumbing myths keep them safe from having to die.

 

Seems like the atheists are again resorting in group style mass posting. Its good that they can at have at least conceded that there is a possibility at least that god did create the universe. As most theoretical physicists allready believe also. Cientifico by opening up this subject you and the rest of the atheists have left yourself wide open to be judged also.

What we have finally conceded is that the universe is too beautiful and too orderly to have been created out of chaos and chance, plus we have conceded that everything has a beginning point therefore it had to have been created (the universe and even before the universe). The kicker of all posts and I should say post of teh year by Stox is that he believes the universe was created through a natural process. He cant explain where this natural process came from and who created, yet he still believes it (faith backed by no facts), and he will never ever even dare to tackle this essential question because it will cause his beliefs and the beliefs of the extremist atheists here to crumble like a house of cards.,

Thanks guys, if it wasnt for you we never would have gotten to the truth
God bless


Now they wont ever concede this because of their stubborness but everyone else that is tilting between intelligent designa nd atheism will be reading this and guess which one is making more sense right now and which is one is looking like its based on magic and faith



Jackul your also missing the point that goes even further then that to the beginning of it all. Everything in this universe has an order, a symmetry to it if you will.
Even with one celled creatures why did they clump together to form multi celled creatures. Why didnt they just stay that way. Clearly there are things that we dont scientifically know about yet, but even if there was an atheistic proof to it you havw to look way back to the beginning of it all. Where did it all come from.

WHO CREATED THE BEGINNING??????? Did it come out of thin air? Michio Kaku is one of the top physicists in the world and he also sees it this way. Are you going to call him an idiot alos that believes in fairy tales?

 

If everything needs a beginning pong then so does your god. Or have you just made the catastrophic logical failure of making your explanitory agent negate the very law that required it's invocation, again?

This is why nothing say stands up to scrutiny pong, because it's invariably complete bollocks that makes no sense at all.

 

Not all life is symmetrical. Nor are all solar systems. I explained a possibility to seeing how it "began" but honestly I do not think or believe, or have any evidence that there was a creator.

Multi-cellular life arose from the simplest of reasons - it worked better.

 

This might explain it~!

Scientists are convinced that our universe began with one enormous explosion of energy and light, which we now call the Big Bang. This was the singular start to everything that exists: the beginning of the universe, the start of space, and even the initial start of time itself.

Astrophysicist Robert Jastrow, a self-described agnostic, stated, "The seed of everything that has happened in the Universe was planted in that first instant; every star, every planet and every living creature in the Universe came into being as a result of events that were set in motion in the moment of the cosmic explosion...The Universe flashed into being, and we cannot find out what caused that to happen."9

Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate in Physics, said at the moment of this explosion, "the universe was about a hundred thousands million degrees Centigrade...and the universe was filled with light."10

The universe has not always existed. It had a start...what caused that? Scientists have no explanation for the sudden explosion of light and matter.

The answer is GOD!