McDar Experiment

Rational,

Although I didn't follow you exactly on your last post, I think I got the gist of it..

I had an experience where I wanted to improve the placement of a product page and knew that adding a few links with the appropriate anchor text should get the job done.

OMG!!!

After I added the anchor text the page fell from position #11 to now #25.

Now, it could be that it just coincided with Googles recent fiddling around or the added new links caused some dampening effect. Google only knows!

I guess now is not a great time to try to determine cause and effect...

regular search #25
-dsa... #8

We'll see

 

Hehe... I re-read my post, and even if I knew what I was talking about in advance it quickly got a bit complicated

But my main point was what Caryl mentioned. Here, I'll summarize the post:

Seven days ago, I sat up a new site C and linked from every page on site A to the index page on site C (in total 735 links). Every page on site A had before this already one outboud link to site B.

So what happened with site C:
As long as Google only knew about one link (it picked up this one six days ago), it remained relatively stable in position 215-220 in both allinanchor and the sandboxed search (nowhere to be found in the regular search).

Then, yesterday night, Google deep crawled site A and found apx. 600 more links, and site C dived to #455 in the sandboxed search, and disappeard from the allinanchor. Today it is at #427 and still gone from the allinanchor SERP.

Site B did also drop in the rankings (#7 positions in the regular SERP). When site C's position has stabilized, I'll check out more thorougly what power there are in these links -- I'll remove all links pointing from site A to site B. It will be interesting to see the effects of this on both A, B and C.

Hmm.. this ended up being more than a summary, more a re-telling I guess... hope it was more clear this time

 

Much better this time. I now understand what you were talking about.

If I were you I wouldn't change anything for some time. I can't believe that these negative effects are really intentional as it were. I would agree that they were probably triggered by the large infusion of links, but I expect the expected value of the links will start to show up and that both sites C and B will recover.

 

I agree with Bob!

This is the hardest part of SEO... being PATIENT

But, if we have learned anything, it is that Google is delaying some effects of SEO. Too many changes, too quickly, will obscure what effects any of the changes really had.

I am finding myself being a little impatient with what is going on (or not going on) with the experimental page right now. HOWEVER, we must wait for Google to settle down, before we proceed.

Caryl

 

NEW PAGE UPDATE:
*Google PR/Backlink update

The "New Page" sleeping-bags.htm
04/07/2004 "New Page" went live

Search for "Sleeping Bags"
_______________
NOTE: Due to size constraints, the entire report can no longer appear in a post.
You can view the entire report here... Complete Report
________________
Last 10 days

Position #28 allinanchor: #5 - 05/17/2004 [5 datacenters #33]Note: Allinanchor #6 on 6 DCs
Position #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/18/2004 [2 DCs #25, 10 DCs #27, 4 DCs #29, 6 DCs #34]Note: Allinanchor #5 on 6 DCs
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/19/2004 [8 DCs #27, 6 DCs #34]Note: Allinanchor #5 on 6 DCs
Postion #29 allinanchor: #4 - 05/20/2004 [9 DCs #28, 2 DCs #34]Note: Allinanchor #5 on 2 DCs **27 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #27 allinanchor: #4 - 05/21/2004 [10 DCs #26, 2 DCs #33] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 2 DCs **31 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #27 allinanchor: #3 - 05/22/2004 [1 DCs #25, 7 DCs #26] **31 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #26 allinanchor: #4 - 05/24/2004 [1 DCs #24, 10 DCs #25] Note: Allinanchor #3 on 3 DCs & #5 on 7 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/25/2004 [3 DCs #26, 6 DCs #27] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/26/2004 [7 DCs #26, 8 DCs #27, 5 DCs #29] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 3 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #29 allinanchor: #4 - 05/27/2004 [7 DCs #27, 8 DCs #28] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**

_____________________________________________________
note: these pages are found using ( site:www.compar.com +sleeping Bags )
number of Bob's PR6 and PR5 links found:
56 - 5/18/2004 (All datacenters)
Unchanged from previous date
__________________
note: this page is found using ( site:www.komar.org +sleeping Bags )
Alek's PR 7 Link:
Not reported by Google 4/17/2004
Reported by Google 4/18/2004 (all datacenters)
Unchanged from previous date
__________________
note: this page is found using ( site:www.ski-france-ok.com +sleeping Bags )
Foxy's PR5 and two PR4s
0 - 4/20/2004
3 - 5/04/2004
Unchanged from previous date

__________________
Bob and Foxy added link Sleeping Bags to their sig files on this forum 5/06/2004
Results for - ( site:forums.digitalpoint.com +sleeping bags )
217 - 5/06/2004
241 - 5/07/2004
246 - 5/08/2004
901 - 5/09/2004 ( Looks like the sig links were picked up )
908 - 5/10/2004 ( 18 Datacenters report 1660)
1670 - 5/11/2004
1990 - 5/12/2004
2290 - 5/13/2004
2670 - 5/14/2004 ( 4 Datacenters report 2960)
2950 - 5/15/2004
3100 - 5/16/2004
3350 - 5/17/2004
3500 - 5/18/2004
Unchanged from previous date
3510 - 5/20/2004
3620 - 5/21/2004
3650 - 5/22/2004
3640 - 5/24/2004
3500 - 5/25/2004
3470 - 5/26/2004
Unchanged from previous date
__________________

Caryl and Foxy added link Sleeping Bags to their sig files on the SEO Chat forum 5/11/2004
Results for - ( site:forums.seochat.com +sleeping bags )
9 - 5/11/2004
10 - 5/12/2004
13 - 5/13/2004
16 - 5/14/2004 ( 4 Datacenters report 110)
108 - 5/15/2004
108 - 5/16/2004
181 - 5/17/2004
230 - 5/18/2004
232 - 5/19/2004
254 - 5/20/2004
298 - 5/21/2004
318 - 5/22/2004
435 - 5/24/2004
490 - 5/25/2004
467 - 5/26/2004
461 - 5/27/2004
__________________

"Sandbox" info - this search theoretically removes "sandbox" link filter
Results for - ( sleeping bags -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -das -das -dsa )
#3 - 05/15/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#2 - 05/21/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#3 - on 17 DCs and #2 on 14 DCs 05/24/2004
#2 - on 16 DCs and #3 on 15 DCs 05/25/2004
Unchanged from previous date

__________________

Caryl's Links [links posted 04/07/2004]
2 PR6s & 5 PR5's
__________________
PR/Backlink info

sleeping-bags.htm has PR5
49 Backlinks
(backlinks reported in the 49)
5 of Caryl's links
42 of Bob's Links
1 of Foxy's Links
2 for Digitalpoint forums
Nothing for Alek's PR7 link(the link on Alek's page is 53rd link - may validate the 50 link/page theory)
__________________

 

Damn, I wish Google would finish the next update.

Maybe Anthonycea is right. Maybe it is just a conspiracy to piss us all off.

 

Amen and all that to that

 

NEW PAGE UPDATE:
*Google PR/Backlink update

The "New Page" sleeping-bags.htm
04/07/2004 "New Page" went live

Search for "Sleeping Bags"
_______________
NOTE: Due to size constraints, the entire report can no longer appear in a post.
You can view the entire report here... Complete Report
________________
Last 10 days

Position #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/18/2004 [2 DCs #25, 10 DCs #27, 4 DCs #29, 6 DCs #34]Note: Allinanchor #5 on 6 DCs
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/19/2004 [8 DCs #27, 6 DCs #34]Note: Allinanchor #5 on 6 DCs
Postion #29 allinanchor: #4 - 05/20/2004 [9 DCs #28, 2 DCs #34]Note: Allinanchor #5 on 2 DCs **27 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #27 allinanchor: #4 - 05/21/2004 [10 DCs #26, 2 DCs #33] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 2 DCs **31 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #27 allinanchor: #3 - 05/22/2004 [1 DCs #25, 7 DCs #26] **31 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #26 allinanchor: #4 - 05/24/2004 [1 DCs #24, 10 DCs #25] Note: Allinanchor #3 on 3 DCs & #5 on 7 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/25/2004 [3 DCs #26, 6 DCs #27] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/26/2004 [7 DCs #26, 8 DCs #27, 5 DCs #29] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 3 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #29 allinanchor: #4 - 05/27/2004 [7 DCs #27, 8 DCs #28] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #23 allinanchor: #4 - 05/28/2004 [3 DCs #22, 8 DCs #24] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**

_____________________________________________________
note: these pages are found using ( site:www.compar.com +sleeping Bags )
number of Bob's PR6 and PR5 links found:
56 - 5/18/2004 (All datacenters)
Unchanged from previous date
__________________
note: this page is found using ( site:www.komar.org +sleeping Bags )
Alek's PR 7 Link:
Not reported by Google 4/17/2004
Reported by Google 4/18/2004 (all datacenters)
Unchanged from previous date
__________________
note: this page is found using ( site:www.ski-france-ok.com +sleeping Bags )
Foxy's PR5 and two PR4s
0 - 4/20/2004
3 - 5/04/2004
Unchanged from previous date

__________________
Bob and Foxy added link Sleeping Bags to their sig files on this forum 5/06/2004
Results for - ( site:forums.digitalpoint.com +sleeping bags )
217 - 5/06/2004
241 - 5/07/2004
246 - 5/08/2004
901 - 5/09/2004 ( Looks like the sig links were picked up )
908 - 5/10/2004 ( 18 Datacenters report 1660)
1670 - 5/11/2004
1990 - 5/12/2004
2290 - 5/13/2004
2670 - 5/14/2004 ( 4 Datacenters report 2960)
2950 - 5/15/2004
3100 - 5/16/2004
3350 - 5/17/2004
3500 - 5/18/2004
Unchanged from previous date
3510 - 5/20/2004
3620 - 5/21/2004
3650 - 5/22/2004
3640 - 5/24/2004
3500 - 5/25/2004
3470 - 5/26/2004
Unchanged from previous date
__________________

Caryl and Foxy added link Sleeping Bags to their sig files on the SEO Chat forum 5/11/2004
Results for - ( site:forums.seochat.com +sleeping bags )
9 - 5/11/2004
10 - 5/12/2004
13 - 5/13/2004
16 - 5/14/2004 ( 4 Datacenters report 110)
108 - 5/15/2004
108 - 5/16/2004
181 - 5/17/2004
230 - 5/18/2004
232 - 5/19/2004
254 - 5/20/2004
298 - 5/21/2004
318 - 5/22/2004
435 - 5/24/2004
490 - 5/25/2004
467 - 5/26/2004
461 - 5/27/2004
Unchanged from previous date
__________________

"Sandbox" info - this search theoretically removes "sandbox" link filter
Results for - ( sleeping bags -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -das -das -dsa )
#3 - 05/15/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#2 - 05/21/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#3 - on 17 DCs and #2 on 14 DCs 05/24/2004
#2 - on 16 DCs and #3 on 15 DCs 05/25/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#2 - 05/28/2004

__________________

Caryl's Links [links posted 04/07/2004]
2 PR6s & 5 PR5's
__________________
PR/Backlink info

sleeping-bags.htm has PR5
49 Backlinks
(backlinks reported in the 49)
5 of Caryl's links
42 of Bob's Links
1 of Foxy's Links
2 for Digitalpoint forums
Nothing for Alek's PR7 link(the link on Alek's page is 53rd link - may validate the 50 link/page theory)
__________________

 

I just happened to notice that the search for sleeping bags -dsa... had us at #2 this morning.

We are now #17 for that same search.

Google is changing things again!

 

Hi, I'm back

In reading over the posts over the last few days to catch up I thought it would be interesting if we took a virgin site up and running to test alongside this one a few theories based on Rationals experience and thoughts combined with all your comments.

As it happens I intend to "Change My Name" only because some a..holes out there have taken it - one of which is a porn site - and so I thought well why not make a new site from scratch to sell some software, and the product recipes, that we do very well, as well as test some theories and be independent from the main sites that really ought to be concentrating on what they do best - make money.

So that's what I am about to do. As I haven't registered the site PM me and I will send you the test page and then if you think its a good idea I will build it by consensus according to what we ie. "royal we" want. It does not matter what we theme it, title it as and we can have forums, blogs, chats, on anything and as you will see from the name there is not too many people out there who would choose that one!!!

hehe

 

You're right Caryl

I was ranking #5 for my keyword phrase -dsa search and now I don't show at all. Let's hope it's a good shake up!

Mick

 

As an alternative to Foxy's new site may I suggest a site I registered and launched on May 21. It is called Online Poker Rooms.

As you can see all I have done so far is stick up a home page and put 3 affiliate banners on it. I have also linked to it from my InfoPool pages and half a dozen other pages and sites. Google has indexed it and here is what Caryl's keyword tool reports.

I have now located a lot of additional material I want to add to the site. Once I decide on a design look and feel I will be adding that material. I'd be open to any ideas for promoting this site that we could use as an alternative experiment.

This is a really competitive area or subject matter so it would make an interesting test vehicle.

 

Thats cool Bob - you already have material - loads, and it is competitive and it would be fun getting wherever we get it for you and prove a few things on the way.

Perhaps we could use my one as well - it was registered today and has no index page or links to it yet. That I will do tomorrow. But I think your site is probably in a better positon technically to test things.

 

The interesting thing about Caryl's report on my online poker room site is that the @www.online-poker-rooms.nu search only show 3 pages. But if you do a 'site:www.compar.com +online poker rooms' seach you get 52 pages from that site alone. And then as I said there are links from about half a dozen other sites.

Strange the difference in these results?????

 

Isn't this the lag of Google between your site and the new site launched on May21? Even if G is aware of the links to the new site it hasn't yet [read won't] confirmed the position on the new site by listing them?

Or is it too many wines and I need to go to bed?

 

More confirmation that something is currently afoot at Google!

 

I assume that Caryl is away for the holiday weekend.

Here is what her Keyword Analysis tool reports about our experimental page this morning.

http://www.mcdar.com/camping1/sleeping-bags.htm

Place In SERP: #30

Pages in site: 257

Backlinks: 49

Allinanchor position: #5

Links: 521 (as reported by a "@www.mcdar.com/camping1/sleeping-bags.htm" search)

If the number of links reported are actually what Google has seen or is reporting it confirms my suspicion that Google is probably only picking up one Sig link per page. And that rather than the site being credited with the approx 3500 sig links on the forum it is only being credited with about one in ten.

The 'sleeping bags -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -das -das -dsa' search with Caryl's tools reports the site as #20. I checked that directly in Google and it came up as #17. In either case this is a big drop from the page's previous rankings for this search. In terms of sandbox theory I'm not sure what that tells us????

 

In my parallel-ish experiment with me Weber bbqs I had dropped to 40 [from 17] in the serps for both the xxx and the xxx -dsa but am back to 20,21 today with the -dsa [still at 40 with the normal] with no difference in my allins.

Not sure what this tells us either!

 

Hi All,
I am back from a much needed holiday!

Bob,

The search @www.mcdar.com/camping1/sleeping-bags.htm ONLY picks up incidences where the url is present on the text of the page. It would not pick up where anchor text is used. The results for this search is 8.

The Keyword Tool is reporting the results for the main site @www.mcdar.com where there are 518 occurances found of www.mcdar.com.

In regards to the "sandbox" search -dsa..., I have seen many reports of a change in these results, starting last Friday. Google certainly has been changing things!

I did keep track of some of the major data in our experiment over the weekend so I will be updating this right now.

Caryl

 

NEW PAGE UPDATE:
*Google PR/Backlink update

The "New Page" sleeping-bags.htm
04/07/2004 "New Page" went live

Search for "Sleeping Bags"
_______________
NOTE: Due to size constraints, the entire report can no longer appear in a post.
You can view the entire report here... Complete Report
________________
Last 10 days

Postion #27 allinanchor: #4 - 05/21/2004 [10 DCs #26, 2 DCs #33] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 2 DCs **31 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #27 allinanchor: #3 - 05/22/2004 [1 DCs #25, 7 DCs #26] **31 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #26 allinanchor: #4 - 05/24/2004 [1 DCs #24, 10 DCs #25] Note: Allinanchor #3 on 3 DCs & #5 on 7 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/25/2004 [3 DCs #26, 6 DCs #27] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #28 allinanchor: #4 - 05/26/2004 [7 DCs #26, 8 DCs #27, 5 DCs #29] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 3 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #29 allinanchor: #4 - 05/27/2004 [7 DCs #27, 8 DCs #28] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #23 allinanchor: #4 - 05/28/2004 [3 DCs #22, 8 DCs #24] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #25 allinanchor: #4 - 05/29/2004 [All DCs not recorded] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #25 allinanchor: #4 - 05/30/2004 [All DCs not recorded] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #25 allinanchor: #4 - 05/31/2004 [All DCs not recorded] Note: Allinanchor #5 on 4 DCs **29 DCs are NOT responding**
Postion #29 allinanchor: #5 - 06/1/2004 [1 DC #27, 7 DCs #28] **29 DCs are NOT responding**

_____________________________________________________
note: these pages are found using ( site:www.compar.com +sleeping Bags )
number of Bob's PR6 and PR5 links found:
56 - 5/18/2004 (All datacenters)
Unchanged from previous date
__________________
note: this page is found using ( site:www.komar.org +sleeping Bags )
Alek's PR 7 Link:
Not reported by Google 4/17/2004
Reported by Google 4/18/2004 (all datacenters)
Unchanged from previous date
__________________
note: this page is found using ( site:www.ski-france-ok.com +sleeping Bags )
Foxy's PR5 and two PR4s
0 - 4/20/2004
3 - 5/04/2004
Unchanged from previous date

__________________
Bob and Foxy added link Sleeping Bags to their sig files on this forum 5/06/2004
Results for - ( site:forums.digitalpoint.com +sleeping bags )
217 - 5/06/2004
241 - 5/07/2004
246 - 5/08/2004
901 - 5/09/2004 ( Looks like the sig links were picked up )
908 - 5/10/2004 ( 18 Datacenters report 1660)
1670 - 5/11/2004
1990 - 5/12/2004
2290 - 5/13/2004
2670 - 5/14/2004 ( 4 Datacenters report 2960)
2950 - 5/15/2004
3100 - 5/16/2004
3350 - 5/17/2004
3500 - 5/18/2004
Unchanged from previous date
3510 - 5/20/2004
3620 - 5/21/2004
3650 - 5/22/2004
3640 - 5/24/2004
3500 - 5/25/2004
3470 - 5/26/2004
Unchanged from previous date
3530 - 6/1/2004
__________________

Caryl and Foxy added link Sleeping Bags to their sig files on the SEO Chat forum 5/11/2004
Results for - ( site:forums.seochat.com +sleeping bags )
9 - 5/11/2004
10 - 5/12/2004
13 - 5/13/2004
16 - 5/14/2004 ( 4 Datacenters report 110)
108 - 5/15/2004
108 - 5/16/2004
181 - 5/17/2004
230 - 5/18/2004
232 - 5/19/2004
254 - 5/20/2004
298 - 5/21/2004
318 - 5/22/2004
435 - 5/24/2004
490 - 5/25/2004
467 - 5/26/2004
461 - 5/27/2004
Unchanged from previous date
429 - 6/1/2004
__________________

"Sandbox" info - this search theoretically removes "sandbox" link filter
Results for - ( sleeping bags -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -dsa -das -das -dsa )
#3 - 05/15/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#2 - 05/21/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#3 - on 17 DCs and #2 on 14 DCs 05/24/2004
#2 - on 16 DCs and #3 on 15 DCs 05/25/2004
Unchanged from previous date
#2 [/COLOR] - 05/28/2004 (later in day #17)
#19 - 06/1/2004

__________________

Caryl's Links [links posted 04/07/2004]
2 PR6s & 5 PR5's
__________________
PR/Backlink info

~ May 31 Update ~
sleeping-bags.htm has PR6
170 Backlinks
(backlinks reported in the 170)
37 of Caryl's links
46 of Bob's Links
1 of Foxy's Links
85 for Digitalpoint forums
1 for Alek's Link
___________
~ April 23 Update ~
sleeping-bags.htm has PR5
49 Backlinks
(backlinks reported in the 49)
5 of Caryl's links
42 of Bob's Links
1 of Foxy's Links
2 for Digitalpoint forums
Nothing for Alek's PR7 link(the link on Alek's page is 53rd link - may validate the 50 link/page theory)
__________________[/QUOTE]