@Vegetarians

So I was at a BBQ recently, and had an interesting discussion with a vegetarian. She was giving me some grief for the large bloody steak on my plate.

So I started to think about it, and if everyone in the world was a vegetarian, and the evil meat industry was abandoned in favor of soy farms, there would be no need for cows at all (does not apply to India).

So, from the cows perspective: is it better to have a somewhat short, dull life as an aspiring Big Mac, or to never have lived at all?

I think the cows would choose the route of the Big Mac if they had a choice. Any thoughts?

 

From a cow's perspective you have too much time on your hands

 

So lets see, capture an animal then breed the heck out of it until its as tasty and cost effective as possible, all the time robbing it of its freedom and whole natural existence and then stand back and admire your work, stating "They are lucky we created them"

Yup, sounds about right.

 

He's right.

Cows have gang fights for the right to be Big Macs.

Haven't you noticed how the ones left behind always look so bored and mournful?

 

Oh yeah, I'm sure the cows who are kept perpetually pregenant and over producing milk so much that they get infections, end up dragging their utters on the ground, plus have their babies taken away from them when they are born feel extremely lucky to have humans watching over them. I bet they leap for freakin' joy when the farmer comes by to artificially inseminate them too. I know I would!

Not to mention the weird reasoning behind thinking that a cows milk is something humans are supposed to ingest. A cow produces milk for its offspring, and humans do the same for their offspring. Cows are completely different then humans and would require a completely different set of nutrients.

Don't even get me started on the beef aspect of cows, which makes even less sense.
You should Google more info for some needed enlightenment.

 

Thanks. I'll put that right on my "To do when I'm totally bored" list...

I don't know why it is that vegetarians or vegans assume that the reason those of us who are still omnivores are only of that persuasion because we are too stupid to have thought about the state of the known universe.

There IS always the possibility that we simply don't agree with the conclusions that you have come to, you know.

There IS always the possibility that what works for you doesn't work for everyone.

 

If there are other things more important to you, then I guess you will do those first. Maybe some day.

I don't think you are stupid, just not well informed. When you learn the facts and don't do anything about it, that's what seems stupid.
We are constantly lied/marketed to in a way that is best for those in it to make money. But you know that.

I know it IS a possibility that you "just don't agree."
But that isn't an excuse for the continuation of suffering, over consumption, environmental decay, inefficiency, and an unhealthy life style.

There isn't just the one person involved (those who choose to eat it). We are all affected by it.

It's like giving the finger to the rest of the world because you don't agree.

 

Propaganda exists on both sides of this issue, SGH, as it does with most issues. To say that my conclusion is stupid or ill-informed because it isn't the same as your conclusion doesn't advance the cause -- it's what zealots resort to when they meet disagreement and the usual result is that most people just dismiss them as close-minded zealots.

And if suddenly everyone on this forum woke up tomorrow and agreed with you, that would be fine? In spite of the fact that there are millions of people who disagree with your conclusions? Isn't that "like giving the finger to the rest of the world because you don't agree" with those who disagree with you?

You see the problem: You have certain beliefs and as a result of your research and reading and thinking about the issue have reached certain conclusions. But you then make the mistake of assuming that your conclusion is the only logical or rational conclusion that any reasonable person could possibly make. And you are wrong about that.

 

I'm not saying that propaganda doesn't exist on both sides. You have to read past it for sure. I'm just pointing out that there is a lot more to gain for those spreading proaganda on the animal exploitation side.
I'm not saying that other conclusions besides my own are ill-informed because they aren't the same conclusions I've come to. I've been on the other side of the my current conclusion and I've seen how blind I was to the vegan standpoint.

Huh? I'm not trying to make everyone wake up tomorrow and switch to veganism, but to think about it. Help cause less suffering, that's all.

Not really. I'll try and let them know about it as well. I'm not keeping it personal to this forum.

I'm not trying to make everyone feel bad who don't agree with my beliefs. I'm just stating my beliefs and hoping some actaully take it to heart and do some more research than what they are shown in commercials.

I apologize if this came off as a personal attack on you. It's not. I want all to benefit, not just those who agree with me. But it helps to have more people striving for the positive effects of veganism.

 

Oh, the "they make money from saying so, so they must be wrong"-argument, that always wins me over

 

It's not because they make money from it that makes them wrong.

It's the image they project that is wrong.
The money behind it lets them justify their cause of this projection.

This issue is a good example and has gotten a lot of press lately.

 

Yeah I would imagine it's harder when kids are involved. But teaching allows for better choices, even if it seems like it wont do anything right away.

Omnivores usually do challenge the veg*ans choices. But mainly to learn more. Or sometimes just to get a reaction. So many people are different.

I think I just read something yesterday about how certain newspapers and media were told not to mention the word vegan as it was a hostile word and created discontent. So they only used it for shock value when they felt appropriate. So I bet they were vegetarians and used the term vegan to create more .. umm entertainment value.

OT: your location made me think of my New Zealand trip back in February. We had a blast and enjoyed every minute of it. I can't wait to go back.

 

I agree that humans don't need to drink cow milk, but there are a lot of other things we don't need to consume that we do anyway. We don't need dairy products, we don't need chocolate, we don't need coffee...or many other beverages besides water, yadda yadda. For that matter, we don't HAVE to have televisions, cars, furnishings, or many other things we surround ourselves with.

There are lots of things we don't need, but we consume them because we find it enjoyable.


If you really want to inspire folks to make changes, then it helps to provide some great reference points as well as AVOID ranting. Heated emotional comments won't do much except get them defensive. Sharing information usually results in more positive responses, as opposed to just preaching at others.

We could go on and on about the negative effects of farming on the environment. Most people do GET that, and there are many who are testing and taking action to find a healthy balance. Balance is the key word here....completely removing something from existance isn't going to solve the problem because this is more than just about cows and people eating meat.

Being a vegetarian is not the answer that will solve the problem of an overblown meat industry. I doubt there is any one single action that would solve it because it's really about our society as consumers.


Farming, is farming, is farming. Synthetic hormones and other chemical concoctions are used on plants as often as on animals.

Sustainable farming is good....http://www.attra.org/attra-pub/trans.html

Factory farming is not good...http://www.factoryfarm.org/whatis/


I'm sure if cows had feelings like you and I they'd prefer to be left alone forever in a field full of green green grass. But I really doubt that they think about this at all.

 

I tried not to come off preachy, because that is far from what I am when talking to others face to face/not on the Internet.

I didn't want to turn this into a "here are the facts" type of post. Plus I'm at work and don't have time to look it all up again and provide URLs. Aka, I'm lazy right now.

Vegetarian might not be the answer that will solve the overblown meat industry, but it sure would help create less of a demand for these types of things.

I'm all for balance, but I donn't see how it is appropriate when other sentient beings are suffering so that we can enjoy the things we want.

I agree that there are a bunch of chemicals and bio-engineering on plants as there are animals, which is why I do my best to buy organic, and shop at the local farmers market to promote the local farmer. There seems to always be an alternative and I'm looking for those alternatives to things I don't agree with.
I'm also striving to become completely sustainable, but that isn't the easiest thing to do now-a-days.

If anyone wants more info, there is a good section on veganism at this Vegan Militia section.

 

I could never give up Bacon Butties & McDonalds. I just try not to think about where it comes from.

Stupid, i know.

 

lol...I use to say the same thing about Hohos !

Thank goodness I broke that habit.


It might be weird but healthy resources is in major factor is where I choose to live these days. If I can't have access to the type of food/groceries I like to buy (organic mostly) it isn't worth living there. Lucky me that I live in the California cuisine mecca...some cities have churches on every block, others have Starbucks, we have produce stands.

 

healthy food stores are also on my list of things to live near by.

here in Long Beach, CA we have a Wild Oats, Trader Joes, and Farmers Market (Sundays) within walking distance from each other. We pretty much just buy all of our stuff at these places for the week.

I hope every city will have such luck someday.

 

Maybe if fat people just ate less food we can have a big effect on the meat industry!

I know people on that stupid adkins diet who eat so much stinkin meat! more than I do which means they eat toooo much.

Most vegitarians and vegans have major imbalances and are unhealthy, very few that I have met really are careful in getting enough of the right kinds of proteins and soy is not a fix all! Most soy is G.E. and can be bad for you in large quantities or processed (just like anything else.)